How Old Is Old?

July 1, 2009 in Lutheran Church with 14 Comments

Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in NYC. Completed in 1904 and remaining mostly unchanged as the city grew up around it.

Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in NYC. Completed in 1904 and remaining mostly unchanged as the city grew up around it.

Ok, I’ll say it. The Lutheran church is old. It’s old for two specific and distinct reasons.

It’s old because it started a long time ago.
This guy Martin Luther started it all. Luther… Lutheran. I dunno, could just be a coincidence. Luther was a troubled soul (but then, aren’t we all?) who wrote up a list of things wrong with the church and nailed them to a church door in Germany. He wanted normal people to read the Bible, but they couldn’t because it hadn’t been translated in their language. So instead of griping about it to a publisher, he set about translating it himself. The whole thing. Into German. From scratch. Some people rarely open their Bible to read it. This guy spent so much time in it that he could translate the whole thing. We could learn a thing or two from him… But, I digress. My point is, the church is old. How old? Well the list of things being nailed to the door happened in 1517. He published a full translation of the Bible in 1534 (although he finished the New Testament in 1522).

Yes, it’s that old.

It’s old because its members are old.
Seriously. They’re OLD. Even the statistics I could track down are old. In 2001 (yep, 8 years ago is the last time they cared enough to do this), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) sponsored a series of surveys across a sampling of 422 congregations. Here we show the average age of ELCA church attendees compared to the US population.

attendees_age

See anything interesting? Personally, I found a couple of glaring issues with this comparison. While 20 and 30-somethings combine to make up a pretty significant percentage of the US population, they’re an endangered species in an ELCA church. Likewise, if you’re 70-something, you’re in a minority in the US population and yet you’ll find plenty of blue-haired companions in a typical ELCA congregation.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that… I’m just sayin’. If you visit a Lutheran church as a 20 or 30-something, you may feel a bit out of place.

Here’s another interesting peek into their statistics:

clergy_age

This data is more recent (2008) and shows the average age of clergy in Southeastern Synod (solid red line) compared with that of the ELCA as a whole (blue dashed line). I pick on the Southeastern Synod here only because that’s the synod my church is a member of. Yep, they’re mostly between 50 and 60. Now, I don’t want to pick on 50-somethings. I have a lot of respect for the wisdom and knowledge a person can develop over 50 or 60 years. My issue is with a 50-something year old minister trying to relate to a 20 or 30-something year old churchgoer.

Now, if you combine these two factors, you create a perfect storm of old. Old ministers and old members in an old denomination with old traditions.

This is my story of being new in an old church.

  • Charles Oberkehr

    Very interesting and enlightening stats. I wonder how these figures compare to other main line denominations? Nevertheless, I think you touch upon some very important things here. I assume you are a 20-30 something, if so, what are some of the things you find lacking in your experience as a new Lutheran?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/newlutheran newlutheran

      Thanks for stopping buy!

      I am indeed 20-30 something.

      As far as what I find lacking in my experiences as a new Lutheran, I'll be addressing some of that in upcoming posts (along with a little bit more about what makes me "new" in the Lutheran church). The short version is that my experiences with the Lutheran church so far show them to be slow to change as compared to other denominations.

      I don't mean theologically. Theology, by now at least, can't be expected to change that much. The Bible has been around long enough for most primary doctrines to be more-or-less set in stone. Ideas like faith, atonement, grace, love, peace, salvation… these ideas stand the test of time and will continue to do so for ages to come. There are truths that are inherent in the very fiber of creation and these truths will not change.

      No, what I'm referring to more is delivery of this doctrine. While I don't want or expect the church to compromise doctrine for improved delivery, I feel there are a number of things about the way Lutheran churches (as I've experienced them) could improve their delivery of the timeless message they're entrusted with. To be blunt, I find myself so distracted by the ritual and tradition of the church that I often miss out on the message altogether.

      I can't wholly blame the Lutheran church for this problem I suppose. It's self-perpetuating. The older their membership and leadership get, the more out of touch they are with younger generations. The more out of touch they are with younger generations, the older their membership and leadership will get. It's a cycle. And we all know how hard it is to break out of a cycle…

      Much more to come I hope. :-)

      • Katherine

        There are similar debates occurring in many denominations. The question should be though, not what man wants but what God wants. Christianity has become for many a democracy.

        So ask yourself not how you want to worship God, but how God wants you to worship Him. Man was meant to conform to God. God does not meet the demands of men.

        I'm not trying to attack, simply introducing the opposing viewpoint. Also, since you are new, I would deeply suggest giving yourself time to adjust. Feel free to document, but please refrain from making judgments. To be perfectly honest, it's a little bit insulting to others who are lifetime Lutherans and hold the liturgy dear to our hearts. It is like the music on the wind.

        • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/newlutheran newlutheran

          Thanks so much for your feedback Katherine!

          I agree completely that there are similar debates in other denominations. My next post on this site mentions that the 20-30 year old crowd is largely missing from most churches. Perhaps some of my opinions stem from my location. Here in the southeastern US, other churches seem to be doing a better job of reaching my demographic. I live around the corner from a rather large nondenominational church (that happens to have Baptist roots). When we visit this church, it seems like the 20-30 year old crowd is actually in the majority there. They teach Christ crucified, atonement, grace, forgiveness, peace, love… they teach the Bible. They receive Communion (although not every Sunday). They sing songs of praise. The differences I see are less about theology and more about the packaging.

          Some may say that because the message of Christ is timeless, the packaging doesn't matter. But drawing on my mission field experiences, it's clear that even a timeless message needs to be packaged in such a way that the target audience is able to clearly receive it. A missionary needs to translate the message to reach new audiences.

          I've heard a lot of talk about how my generation is somehow more "lost" than others, but I have trouble buying this. It seems like some churches just throw their hands up in the air and claim that we're unreachable. I don't believe my generation, on the whole, is rejecting the message of the church. They do, however, seem to be rejecting the packaging of that message. We have to be able to admit that my generation grew up differently. We grew up connected, wired, plugged in. We grew up in a global community connected through keyboards and mice. We grew up with instant access to whatever media we wanted. Good, bad, or ugly… if it was "out there", we could get it. Can we expect to reach a generation like this the same way we we reached this age group 30 years ago?

          Your point about worshiping God how God wants is brilliant, and I genuinely appreciate it. This concept does beg another question though: how does God want to be worshiped? Perhaps this is the real debate. Is a traditional Lutheran service closer to the way God wants to be worshiped than the pentecostal service going on across town? We do have examples of worship in the Bible. What does the Bible say about it? Psalm 98 comes to mind… Psalm 47… Psalm 63… Why do I find myself refraining from clapping in a Lutheran church? What am I afraid of?

          My point is that much of what I find in the Lutheran church is based more on tradition than actual Biblical example. There's nothing wrong with traditions, but they can get in the way of the message if you let them.

          I do sincerely apologize for insulting you or anyone else through my opinions here. I'm not trying to be malicious with my words. I've simply not really found many answers to some of my questions and I'm hoping this site will spark some discussion. And, even in its infancy, it seems that it already has. :-)

          • Katherine

            Thank you for taking the time to reply. I'm sorry if I might have seemed crass, I just wanted to present an idea that you will most likely encounter in the future as well. It is very exciting and also scary going into a new church. I'm actually on the road to Catholicism from being a lifelong Lutheran. If you have any questions at all, feel free to email me at hoff2308@fredonia.edu. I'm vaguely familiar with how the liturgy has developed (ELCA mostly) and about current changes and debates in the church. I'd be happy to help or to refer you.

            I will pray for you and I hope you and your family enjoy this new journey :)

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/newlutheran newlutheran

            Thanks for the prayers and encouragement Katherine. Both are always welcome. :-)

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/c_p c_p

        You make quite a few good points. I grew up attending a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church until the age of 26. At that time, I moved cross-country to a small town and had to search for a new church for the first time. During that search I noticed the same thing you did about ages in quite a few churches. The other problem I found during my search was that I fit into another difficult category – a single woman who is no longer college age. Unless a church is very large, there is rarely a group or class into which I comfortably fit. I also have to add that although I've attended several churches of different denominations, I've never gotten used to having communion in the pew. :o )

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/newlutheran newlutheran

          Yes, "singles" is another dying breed in a lot of churches, but it depends on where you look. There's a local church here that considers itself "a singles church" (http://blog.buckheadchurch.org/2009/06/29/a-good-… but they are a modern and very contemporary church that appeals to younger demographics, regardless of relationship status. We also found that there were a lot of young married couples there who had no kids, another struggling demographic in a lot churches. I'm tired of joining small groups for "young married couples" where all they talk about is dealing with problems with their kids. :-P

          In every Lutheran church I've visited (granted, that's not a statistically relevant sample) you'd have to look hard to find representation for either of those demographics.

          I grew up receiving Communion in the pew actually. At the large Baptist church I grew up in, they "passed the plates" much the same way they did for the offering. It wasn't until I joined my first Lutheran church that I experienced coming up to the front for Communion and either standing or kneeling. Personally, I have no preference, as long as the method used for Communion allows the receiver to quiet their heart and prepare themselves for the moment.

  • http://whatisarealchristian.blogspot.com/ ~PW

    Goodness gracious, you sound a lot like me. I'm now a pastor's wife. I have had a mixture of Christian denominations in my background. If you have the time, read some of my older posts on (What is a real Christian blog). I have 4 different blogs that have different emphasis. I recently merged them into one, "PW~the real me" then reopened them all up again. lol. I wanted the diversity. Anyways. My grandparents on my dad's side came from an Eastern Orthodox background. My dad died last year. He was the best. He became baptist upon marriage. I grew up Baptist. Then when on my own, I've been either a visitor/member/associated with the following: Mennonite, Independent, Assembly of God, Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, and I'm probably leaving out a couple.

  • http://whatisarealchristian.blogspot.com/ ~PW

    (part 2) I met my husband at seminary. We were both baptist. He had his pastoring credentials at first in Baptist churches, then several years ago switched over to another denomination.My dad's funeral shook me up. Not just in the normal grief way, but religiously. So for several months after the initial grief began to wear off, I started exploring the various faith groups from his original branch of Eastern Orthodox, to Baptist, to etc etc, including Lutheran. I'm not currently associated with a Lutheran church, I'm beginning to see their merits. I'm still comparing them (as you are) to my Anabaptist/Pentecostal background. I have been doing a lot of reading too. Feel free to read my back posts on my "what is a real Christian" blog. There's been some interesting discussions. Also you stumbled upon my twitter page ….I'm gardengirl07.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/newlutheran newlutheran

      Wow! Quite a diverse denominational background you have there! I can only imagine the perspective you've managed to gain through your journey through various churches.

      I never intended to "explore" other church communities. I was raised Baptist and probably would have stayed Baptist if it hadn't been for my wife. She was raised Lutheran and I realized that she'd never feel at home anywhere else. We compromised by agreeing that we'd join a Lutheran church if we could find one with a contemporary service where I could help lead worship. Even that compromise has been difficult (and that's an understatement).

  • http://www.lutheranforums.com/blog/ Ron Amundson

    The age gap and relating is an interesting one…. I concur with the 50+ to 25-35 range, but not so much for the teen-25 domain. To some extent, the older fellows have been there done that, seen this, went whoa over that across a couple generations, and the skills to relate to the young returns… albeit the body may not be so willing.

    I think its somewhat the same with embracing change…. I've seen many a 50+ progressive change oriented pastor over the years. At 30-40, often times its a second career, and they may just be getting their bearings, and/or they long for old traditions, not sure.

    Either way, fascinating stats!

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/newlutheran newlutheran

      Good points, Ron.

      While you're right in saying that an age gap does not automatically create a rift in communication, I think it's the combination of these two aging problems that creates such a rift. I believe older pastors with older congregations get quite comfortable ministering to their grey or blue haired counterparts, but may forget over time how to communicate effectively with a younger crowd. Communication is a skill and if you don't use it, you tend to lose it.

  • http://www.goodshepherdlcbp.org P Richard

    As an older pastor I believe cronological age has little to do with connecting to younger folks. I have seen other churches where they have older pastors and the primary congregational demographic is 20-30. You can check out our website, which is still in progress, but any feedback to make it more appealing would be welcomed.